Do you feel your looks hurt you ???

[Itsonlyme]

{or should I say, "contribute to your depression" ???}

For me, this is an extremely perplexing question.

Here's why I say this.....

First off, looking around at others all day, every day, then looking at myself in the mirror, I don't feel too awfully horrible to look at.
I'd give myself about a 4 out of 10.... which means that there are probably like 40 million guys in the US that are less attractive than me.
Then if pressed, people asked about my looks will often say, ".....but your not a bad looking guy".... which pretty much goes along with my 4 out of 10 assessment.... certainly not a great looking guy.... but not horrible.

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But here's where I get confused.....
If in fact, I am somewhere around a 4 out of 10, then WHY IN THE $%$% are women just instantly not interested in me ?

I mean sure, I often talk about my mile long list of issues. No doubt my life is a freaking train wreck, but women never even get to find all of this out ? They are completely turned off right from the start, and honestly, I just can't come up with any other explanation rather than...
I'm just waaay uglier than I see myself (maybe I'm just use to myself) and everybody who gives me that stuff about "your not a bad looking guy" is just being nice, because they don't want to hurt my feelings ?

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And one other thing concerning looks....
I have come to learn, that if you are a guy that is 5'6" to 5'9", medium sized frame, medium width shoulders {in other words, very average and 'not' intimidating} then sure ! Go on and lose a few lbs of fat, and gain a little muscle.... especially abs. And most especially if you are a pretty boy in the first place ! Women will love you for this !

However, if you are 6ft {or taller} super deep chest, really wide shoulders, and a 4 out of 10 on the looks scale, "don't" put on any muscle, or get ripped.... because this will only make you look scarier, and even uglier !
Take it from me ! It is SOOO totally obvious that the vast majority of women are not attracted to muscle / fitness on a guy that is already a big freaking gorilla.

The ironic thing about this ^ is that you always hear how you are supposed to be proud of your accomplishments, be happy with your body, and feel good about yourself.....

Uhhhh, okay. Well after 5 years of busting my @$$ lifting weights, climbing mountains, and eating like a freak, I do "sometimes" feel pretty good about myself, physically"........ but it really puts a twist on things when you feel good about something, which you know that women either do not care about either way, or worse yet, are completely turned off by.

Oh and of course, lets face it, in this society, its easier to fit in with the crowd if you are fat and out of shape ?

Your thoughts ?

[100footpole]

Love yourself and the women will be there.

When meeting / dealing with people I think they care more about trajectory than looks or other features of personality. People like to help, but they don't want responsibility. We call emergency services (911 in America) to either get direction or to get help. After the first couple of responders I think people slow down ... but don't stop for a wreck.

My opinion anyway ...

[Itsonlyme]

Thank you 100ft. But here's how I feel about this....

The fact that I'm getting zero attention lately, should be of no surprise. I'm sure my trajectory sucks..... especially as I spend more time thinking about my trajectory off of the front end of an Amtrack.

But here's the thing, in 50 freaking years, I've gone through all kinds of phases, with periods where I felt really good about myself.... great attitude, etc. A couple years ago, 3 yrs into my fitness thing, is a good example. And even during those positive times, my good attitude got me nowhere. I asked out several women, and got shot down every single time.

Not to say I never had one single female checking me out, or smiling at me..... just to say, I never had 1 single female checking me out, that I had "any interest in whatsoever".

I mean, I don't know.... Maybe people think I should just settle for a woman who I'm completely turned off by, and / or who's life is an even worse train wreck than my own ?
I contemplate this daily..... but in the end, what would be the point, if I wasn't happy ?

Anyway 100ft, when you said > Love yourself and the women will be there.

This is to assume that I don't love myself, or have any self respect ? When on the contrary, I have all kinds of self respect, and love myself for all kinds of things. I just hate my life.

So when my friends say (in these, "try to fix me" conversations) but your a great guy...... I jump in and say, "Sure, in many ways, I think so too.... so why won't they even look at me to begin with" ?

I just have no idea.

I do feel I'll die not having any idea either.
But the sooner, the better.

[100footpole]

I try not to look at life in binary terms .... I want to think about it as a continuum. So I reject your statement:

" Maybe people think I should just settle for a woman who I'm completely turned off by, and / or who's life is an even worse train wreck than my own ?
I contemplate this daily..... but in the end, what would be the point, if I wasn't happy ? "

Definitely stay away from women "You are completely turned off by" But ask yourself if there is a place that a woman is only attractive enough that you decide not to risk rejection. I understand what you mean by the train wreck thing. 30 years ago I road a bus from the commuter parking at the university. There was a bus driver who was attractive, so I talked to her. She had kids, I like kids. Then she started to talk about me as an angel in her life .... even though we had never gone out ... but I couldn't handle that and stopped talking to her. That has always been a "train wreck missed" in my mind ... And I've fought enough with my wife, who I love dearly and didn't think I would ever fight with, to know that relationship would have been awful.

When I went to that school I asked a heavy girl from my mandatory political science class out. I really liked her personality, and thought that I could grow to love her. She had transferred from an engineering school after having her heart broken a bunch of times. I couldn't get around the fact that she seemed to think I was going to do the same thing. We only went out a few times, but I told her that I couldn't keep going because of the baggage she had from the other guys.

After those two I quit looking for a girl at school ... and found one a couple of years later ... once I got used to just having fun.

I would suggest you look up the Dunning-Kruger cognitive bias. It is a two parter: people who aren't good at something think they are, and people who are good at something think they aren't. This seems to be a western cultural bias ... It can't be duplicated in Asia.

When I met my wife I asked her to go to a concert with me (Joe "King" Carrasco, king of Tex Mex, on his '83 East Coast Tour ...). She said no, I saw her there with some other guy. I ran into her some more, asked her out some more, and told her I'd seen her at the concert. My motto at the time was "I have fun wherever I am. She just wanted to be sure that I wasn't the guy at the concert who danced by himself the whole time ... and had fun. After I told her I thought that he'd had too much fun ... (I think drugs were involved) she agreed to go out with me... and the rest is the best thing that ever happened to me.

I'm trying to tell you what I think worked for me ... I guess the other part of the story would be that she hung out with two people that were more traditionally attractive than her. When I met her out and about they were generally with her and once one of my wing men hooked up with one of her friends ... which was what probably made her turn me down for Joe King Carrasco.

[Itsonlyme]

Thanks again 100ft. I read your response here, 3 X's.... {trying to soak it up, but the TV is on too ... freaking ADD !

When you say > But ask yourself if there is a place that a woman is only attractive enough that you decide not to risk rejection.

Well first off, the term "risk rejection" is kind of an oxymoron, because really, what is the risk ? All she can say is no..... and then maybe, "Get away from me you ugly, bald headed B@$#%$%" ! LOL {Fortunately, I haven't actually had that one yet}
But honestly, I'm not afraid of getting let down. In fact, I should just expect it.

I have asked out at least 1 girl who was super-fit (duh.. she was a personal fitness trainer) cute and spunky as could be, and about 15 yrs younger than me... after a 15 min talk, and that all went fantastically.
She sounded sincerely flattered... but said she was already in a relationship. Well of course. Why wouldn't she be ? People with all that going on in their lives don't have to be lonely / by themselves.

I was talking for several weeks with another lady, who was my own age, 30 or 40 lbs overweight, short hair, and glasses.... but I'm still sprung on her to this day. (she might just be the one rare exception who decided I wasn't worth going out with "after" she found out a bunch of my crazy psych issues.) Apparently, she thought I looked buff / fit / great. I did say she wore glasses, right ? LOL

Point being, I don't feel like I'm being too picky, nor am I afraid to > just go for it..... even after being shot down as many X's as I have.

Like I have said so many X's....

Do I expect to die lonely / alone ? Absolutely.

Do I still try for a relationship, in spite of this ? Absolutely.

Hmmmm....

[tazy]

After those two I quit looking for a girl at school ... and found one a couple of years later ... once I got used to just having fun......!!!!



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[100footpole]

What Tazy said.

I'm sure all your friends say "Don't Try So Hard."

I think that if you're lucky that you find a puzzle piece that matches. If you're not you need to become flexible enough to find a way to match another piece. What I'm saying is if you just think about fun then other people will find you.

The hard part is having fun on your own. Your pictures are WONDERFUL. I would think that would be a place to start. No matter what you can control what you do ... not other people.

There is a Koan in your statement: But honestly, I'm not afraid of getting let down. In fact, I should just expect it.

If I were meditating on it I would focus first on the word should. But in addition I would do a worst case analysis on "afraid of getting let down."

There is a koan where a monk is chased off a cliff by a tiger. Hanging from a branch and sees a berry plant. Eats the berry and says mmmm sweet. After I've been really down I make myself look around for the berry ... (For me doesn't work when I'm just hanging ... take it on faith that I can't feel "this bad" forever ... hard part is getting through the "bad parts").

[Itsonlyme]

Well ya' know Tazy, in all of my nearly two decades of loneliness, I have had times when I certainly tried too hard.... and lots of times when I didn't try at all.....
Then times when I felt great about myself, and my accomplishments, and times when I felt like a worthless POS.
Times when I was in horrendous physical shape (most of my adult life) and now, I'm in the best physical shape of my life, at 50yo.

All things ^ which should have made either a positive, or negative difference, right ?

But guess what, it didn't make any difference whatsoever ?
Just as lonely tonight, as I have been the last 18 freaking years