Over thinking

[astylinson22]

I'm pretty sure I don't have depression or anything like that, I just think way too much. For example, my friends drift away and come back constantly. Like one day theyll make me laugh and we will have fun, but not even a day later they drift away again, avoiding me . Theres probably a reason behind it, but there is this little irritating voice in the back of my head saying upsetting things. Like "Theyre embarassed of you." Or "Do you blame them *names off every insecurity*" and it makes me just have this heavy feeling in my chest. Sometimes it is as simple as me getting a lower grade on an assignment and the voice will tell me how stupid I am, and how my own parents are ashamed of me. Then one day I forgot to take out the trash and my dad said "Youre so useless M/N" so that voice told me that it was right, and it made me have the urge to self harm. Now ive read something about that on social media and I thought it was crazy that someone could feel good from splitting your own skin. I decided just once on my leg so noone could notice, but it actually felt good? Good isnt really the word, more like relieving. It made me clear my mind and realize they didnt mean it. Now the voice contradicts everything I do, whether its if I should eat an apple or if I should text someone. Everything I do that negative bugger keeps giving me negative thoughts and it always ends up with me standing in my bathroom with a bloody piece of metal in my hands. It scares me because sometimes I dont even realize im doing it. What if one of these times I cut a vein or something and not realize? I feel so drained all the time. I just wish this voice would leave. Any suggestions or simularities?

[100footpole]

Astylson22,

You are depressed. Self-harm is a sign.

You are a good person, because your friends come back to you. You need to see a therapist to get insight into what other people's motivations.

You may want to test yourself online for Asperger's Syndrome. Asperger's is a description of how your brain is wired ... it is a continuum, like many other aspects of your personality. The problem with Asperger's or related pathologies is that you may not have the insight into other people's motivations. This may cause you to unconsciously make wrong assumptions about their motivations, and acting on those assumptions may make you seem "weird" to other people.

There are ways to work around this, but self-harm is not one of them. I self-harmed for two years 35 years ago. One of the things I am most proud of is that I have figured out ways to not do that. On the other hand, life is still not the easy road that I thought it would be early in life.

Go see a therapist just to get information, and let us know what you think.

[Cerioth]

Self harm is not necessarily a sign of depression as it's not actually a main symptom of depression. However, it's associated to some personality disorder, and Asperger's syndrome was a good call though I don't really see the connection by this piece of text. A lot of the things you mentioned sound like what I think sometimes, and I have borderline personality disorder. It makes me very observant and think a lot.

I suggest you will do some self study - observe yourself. What kind of things affect you? What pleases you? What displeases you? Do the tones of other people affect the way you think about what they say? And so on.

Therapist is a choice, of course, but they do not have the ready answers for you either.

[100footpole]

Cerioth,

Thanks for getting me to re-look at my answer.

This article lists six reasons for self-injury:

Distract themselves, alter the focus of their attention, or regain control over their minds when experiencing pressing, unavoidable and overwhelming feelings or thoughts.
Release tension associated with strong emotions or overwhelming thoughts.
Feel something physical when they are otherwise dissociated and numb.
Express themselves or communicate and/or document strong emotions they are feeling and cannot otherwise articulate.
Punish themselves.
Experience a temporary but intense feeling of euphoria that occurs in the immediate aftermath of self-harm.

So you are right that depression and aspberger's are probably reflections of my reasons for having engaged in self-harm, but the classification of the reasons behind the behavior need to be made by a professional for five of the six reasons listed above.

I agree with your suggestion that the writer:

I suggest you will do some self study - observe yourself. What kind of things affect you? What pleases you? What displeases you? Do the tones of other people affect the way you think about what they say? And so on.

But after the initial observation, I believe that all of the six reasons listed above can be better served with a therapist's insight. Particularly when the author states:

Now the voice contradicts everything I do, whether its if I should eat an apple or if I should text someone. Everything I do that negative bugger keeps giving me negative thoughts and it always ends up with me standing in my bathroom with a bloody piece of metal in my hands.

Reading about the mechanics of self-harm, the effects are related to a release of endorphins. I think that the two things a therapist brings to the table are first a better chance that the medications prescribed will be more effective than the ones available on the street and second that the therapist will introduce you to best practices based on an educated diagnosis. That being said, the title of "therapist" does not guarantee quality. I know that I am a better person post-therapy, but I agree that my path forward is now based on self-study, and not therapy. But, if I found myself compelled to self-harm I would certainly return to therapy, because that is what worked for me before.

[specter]

One thing that I do not agree with is the "euphoria" that people get from self-harm. If anything, self-harming breaks my heart. It makes me feel worse. This is probably only a truth for me, as I don't see anyone else doing it for the same reason. The reason I self-harm, again, is for the sake of self-punishment. One and only reason.

Hi astylinson22.

[100footpole]

Hi Specter,

You're right "euphoria" is a strong word, although it certainly seems to apply to modern primitivest practices: Suspensions anyone?

Rather than "euphoric" I might use "ritualistic". I remember fighting the need to self-harm for shorter and shorter periods. And you are right, I would describe the feeling as more of one of doing a workout rather than "euphoric" like an adrenaline rush.

I was certainly engaged in magical thinking: there were thoughts of "deserving" that led to the compulsion. Sometimes I would engage with these by looking for ""signs" ... The signs started out positive, I used them to meet and date a girl etc., but then they turned weird. Girl broke it off with the "lets be friends" line. I don't remember the exact trajectory of my spiral, but I wish me now could give myself then advice.

Looking back I see myself blowing opportunities by thinking magically rather than reasonably. I am now examining my posts trying not to be too directive ... as in my original post that was based on my experience rather than the different classes of weirdness I found on the web.

By disagreeing with "euphoria" I think you are kind of agreeing with the other rationales. The one I had the most problem with was the feeling of "dissociation and numb", That was only part of my compulsion, and generally occurred if I postponed the behavior too long. The Pink Floyd song "comfortably numb" became a trigger for me in the 80s. Didn't watch the movie The Wall until the mid 90s because of it.

I think if I did a thorough search of the literature I could find tens or scores of descriptions of what I felt when I self-harmed, but for me there wouldn't be just one that applied, I suspect there would be different percentages for each incident, with overarching themes that a therapist would probably focus on.

[specter]

... I don't think I'll ever understand why people consider the idea of deserving "magical thinking". Psychiatrists, specifically, tend to think along those lines: if you think a certain way, instead of thinking the way we think is "right" for everyone, then there must be something wrong with you. I didn't realize that way of thinking didn't apply to only psychiatrists.

No, it's not a ritual, and there is no adrenaline. When I self-harm, it's miscellaneous, and it's after a period where I feel dreadful. Basically, there is no way I know what day I'm going to do it or if something is doing to stimulate a need for me to self-harm. Not sure what else to say here, but I can tell you that how my experience makes me feel is very, very, very different from yours....

There are millions of different ways people think the way they do, and none of them are incorrect. To tell someone they need to keep their thinking in a strict margin is very limiting.

The reason that I punish myself is because I don't trust myself to not hurt others. I have a lot of hate in my heart. The abandonment that I'm trying to avoid is too much for me to handle. The logic in my mind is that, as long as I'm hurting myself, I won't have time to hurt other people. This is a mentality that some people adopt because of their own tremendous guilt and remorse.

Luckily, my therapist doesn't focus on my self-harm. It's a waste of time because the only thing she seems to be interested in are categorizing and boxing up my feelings. Not interested.

[100footpole]

I found this definition of magical thinking on the web:

Magical thinking is defined as believing that one event happens as a result of another without a plausible link of causation. For example: "I got up on the left side of the bed today; therefore it will rain." The problem with this definition, however, is that exactly what constitutes "a plausible link of causation" can be difficult to pin down. If we were to take this phrase to its logical extreme, we'd have to consider a belief in anything that hasn't been scientifically proven to represent magical thinking. On the other hand, rejecting the use of any and all criteria with which to judge cause and effect leaves us vulnerable to believing that anything can cause anything—or even worse, that an effect can occur without a cause at all.

Perhaps, then, a more nuanced definition of magical thinking would be believing in things more strongly than either evidence or experience justifies. Though I can't prove the sun will rise in the East tomorrow, because it has every day since I've been alive, such a belief couldn't then be said to represent magical thinking.

What I like about the quote is that it supports your statement:

if you think a certain way, instead of thinking the way we think is "right" for everyone, then there must be something wrong with you.

but also shows why therapists might constantly come back to your statements:

To tell someone they need to keep their thinking in a strict margin is very limiting ... The logic in my mind is that, as long as I'm hurting myself, I won't have time to hurt other people.

Magical Thinking often takes a binary either-or form. It ignores that most things we think are false. In fact there is a saying that some of what doctors knows is false, we just don't know what parts. A similar quote I have is "The future is here, it's just not evenly distributed".

In a very general sense I am using the words magical thinking as a shibboleth. To say that a thought is wrong because there is no evident causal basis for the thought is to deny a thinker's freedom of thought. (Denial of freedom is often based on magical precepts ) On the other hand a therapist believes that there is no necessity for a person to deliver a fated amount of pain in their lifetime. Yes, existence is suffering, but that does not mean to exist we must cause pain to either ourselves or others.

Similarly because someone believes that does not mean that you need to stop hurting yourself immediately. To me what that thought means is that you can acknowledge the possibility that sometime in the future you can stop hurting yourself. That not self hurting is a possibility for you, if only a remote one.

Medical practice takes is actually determined by this rejection of freedom. If you have a painful disease Drs will prescribe medicine to alleviate that pain. There are bureaucracies that monitor those decisions, since some Drs. are more likely to prescribe than others, and some agencies attribute this to greed. Who is to say that this isn't "magical thinking" that limits the amount of empathy a Dr. can feel for their patient? WELL ... I choose to say that, in the same way that I make similar inferences about other "shady" people who make general declarations about their "right" to do harm.

As consumers we have the individual ability to decide what makes sense, but similarly we also have the ability to evaluate other's decisions as being logical or non-logical. Societal rules are based on what enough people agree is logical, even though other people think the rules don't make sense.

The cool thing about logic is that has proven the problems that it can solve are fewer than the total number of problems that exist. There is a LOT of room between the statement "that's not logical" and "you are wrong in a fundamental sense". I acknowledge that I am often wrong, but I guess my most basic tenet is that even though everything is, that does not mean that everything will be the same tomorrow. I strive to maximize that difference in a positive way, but since I am often wrong things don't always work out.

Thanks for letting me explain my point of view Specter. I would never say that your point of view is wrong, any more than I would say that your point of view makes mine wrong for me. I hope we can agree to be different in our own ways.

I will try not to use the words "magical thinking" in follow ups to posts that you make ... I'm counting on you to say "There you go again ... " if I forget. The one thing we agree on is your way of thinking is your own.

(((Hugs)))